A conversation with musician extraordinaire Debbie Siebert about how to incorporate music into your family culture: how to get your kids to practice the piano or another instrument, how and when to help them choose an instrument, and how to create an environment that encourages music.
Experiments:
Experiment 1: Let Your Kids See You Play Music
Objective: Set an example of making music. If it looks fun/rewarding when you do it, your kids will want to do it too!
Procedure: Practice in front of your kids. Show them what it looks like to master a piece of music. If you don’t play anything, pick an instrument and learn!
Experiment 2: Attend Live Music Performances as a Family
Objective: Broaden your family’s musical horizons and get them excited about music.
Procedure: Look up local performances, even at the high school level. Your community probably has some free music events in the summer. Find out what kind of children’s programs your local symphony runs—like discounted tickets for kids or special children’s programming.
Experiment 3: Curate Playlists
Objective: Broaden your family’s musical horizons
Procedure: Make specific playlists in different genres to introduce kids to renowned music and artists. The car is a great place to introduce great music.
Experiment 4: Watch Little Einsteins
Objective: Introduce young kids to classical music.
Procedure: Watch the shows together, then make a playlist of all the songs to reinforce the songs they learn.
Experiment 5: Hire a 10-Year-Old
Objective: Free yourself up to sit with your child while they practice.
Procedure: Hire a 10-year-old (or older) friend to play with your other kids while one kid practices. They’ll behave better at the piano with a visitor, and you’ll be free to focus on them.
Experiment 6: Buy Toy Instruments
Objective: Make playing music fun.
Procedure: Buy toys like xylophones, inexpensive ukuleles, shakers, etc., so kids can experiment and see music as play.
Experiment 7: Have a Regular Performance Night
Objective: Get the kids used to performing, and eager to show what they’ve learned that week.
Procedure: Once a week or month, gather the family and have each kid play a song or a part of a song they’ve been working on. Then have each family member share what they liked about the performance.
Experiment 8: Have a Family Talent Show
Objective: Practice performing.
Procedure: Gather your family, extended family, and/or friends and put on a little talent show. Encourage participation from all levels. Shower performers with applause and praise.
Experiment 9: Teach the Basics Yourself
Objective: Save money and start slow.
Procedure: Teach your child the basics of an instrument yourself until they’re around 8. If you don’t know how to play, learn the basics on YouTube or ask a teacher to give you a crash course. Make it a low-pressure, fun one-on-one time. Make it more like playing together than structured practice.
Experiment 10: Practice Hymns Before Church
Objective: Teach kids to sing parts.
Procedure: Find out which hymns you’ll sing at church. Practice singing your part (i.e., alto or tenor) before church, then sing it with the congregation at church.
Experiment 11: Say “Play,” not “Practice”
Objective: Reinforce the idea that music is fun.
Procedure: Stop referring to playing music as practice. Try different methods like rewards or gamifying to make it fun.
Transcript:
Debbie: When I was a child, my dad always wanted to be a concert pianist. He was an accountant, an auditor, so he kept that as a hobby on the side. He always played piano, but he didn't just play for fun. He got right in there with concertos.
He had his favorites that he always played: Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 2, as well as Mozart concertos and lots and lots of Chopin. So I thought it was normal to wake up to Rachmaninoff all the time. It wasn't until I was older that I realized that wasn't a common thing for a child.
Whitney: Welcome to the Family Lab podcast, where we celebrate the fact that parenting and home management are one big experiment.
Today we’re talking with Debbie Siebert about how to incorporate music into your family culture: how to get your kids to practice the piano or another instrument, how and when to help them choose an instrument, and how to create an environment that encourages music. And stay tuned until the end, when the Siebert family will sing us out.
A friend once told me she hates musicals, because in what reality do people just randomly burst into song? And honestly, that was one of the first times I realized that my reality—where people were always randomly bursting into song—was not normal. When I met Debbie, I knew I had found a kindred spirit, someone who was raised in a similar reality, where anything anyone says can be a cue for a song-and-dance number. But you don’t have to be the von Trapp family, or even play an instrument yourself, to bring music into your family life. We’ll talk about several ways you can make your family culture more musical.
But before we get to that, let me tell you a little bit more about Debbie. First of all, she’s one of the most accomplished musicians I know. She has her Doctor of Musical Arts. She sings like an angel—including as a professional opera singer—and she plays the piano beautifully. She is a magician with a choir, and has directed many community, church, and school choirs throughout her career. I had the privilege of singing in one of her choirs, and it was the best choir experience I’ve ever had. We started our conversation by talking about how each of us has brought music into our own family culture. You’ve already heard a bit about her musical upbringing, so we’ll start with a little more about mine.
So we just grew up singing a lot too. But my mom was also forming us into a barbershop quartet the whole time. She was teaching us how to sing parts and things like that, and then we would go around the community and perform barbershop. So that was kind of our baseline. But she's also a pianist, so she started all of us on piano lessons. One by one, they kind of fizzled out and chose different instruments. Ultimately, we ended up with a banjo player, two trumpeters, a saxophone, and I did piano and flute. And then my sister, the youngest, ended up being a professional jazz singer.
Debbie: Fabulous.
Whitney: So we had music all around. My mom would have very structured sessions where we'd all be learning our parts together, and fighting and skirmishing, but also enjoying it—just the big family dynamics. Some of us were more reluctant than others on different days, whatever. But overall it was—
Debbie: A hundred percent the same. Verbatim, yes.
Whitney: But I remember thinking that everybody who starts the piano and quits regrets it. So I was like, I'm just going to make all my kids take piano until they can play hymns from the hymnbook, or get to a certain point. I went into it with that idea, so there was probably a little more forcing on my side from the beginning—you know, they did not want to practice the piano, and we're sitting down and practicing the piano.
So I'm interested to talk to you about a good balance there, because I've definitely chilled out as my kids have grown.
Debbie: By child number four, you're not so—
Whitney: Right. You don't have the time and you don't have the energy.
Yeah. But then sometimes you wonder, am I doing them a disservice? So we'll get into all of that. So with your kids, tell me about their instruments and your training.
Debbie: There was no pressure to be musicians in my family, so I didn't want to pressure my kids to do that either. But music was just part of the culture for my kids, because I was going into it for a career. So it was all around, always happening. It was the environment. Lots and lots of singing all the time.
Whitney: And you married a singer.
Debbie: Married a singer. He's a broadcaster by profession—communications—and he's a great bass. So we had a great time too. That was just the natural environment. And I always wanted to do music with the kids, not as a means to an end for them to be pianists and musicians, but just to help their development. I think music, and the exposure to it, just helps development on its own.
So I thought it was a priority, and I still believe this strongly: there's instrument number one, and then instrument number two. For me, instrument number one, the priority instrument, was keyboard—piano. And then we can branch off from that and play another instrument. Everyone might have different opinions on that. The reason I love starting with the piano is that it's like the theory teacher.
You can look at a keyboard and see the whole steps and half steps. You have the visual of the white keys and black keys and what it looks like, and the theory of playing more than one note at a time. With instruments that aren't a keyboard, you play one note, right? So there are so many things developmentally that are so good about the piano, like the fine motor skills of playing more than one note at a time, and then having to do rhythm and melody with the left hand and right hand. There's just so much there that I feel like it's a good base to start from.
And then it's case by case after that—what happens, how far you go, and then another instrument. I never did another instrument; however, I'm a vocalist, so that counts, right? But everybody needs to sing. That should be a given. All of my kids played another instrument in band as well. We waited for middle school for them to choose an instrument there, so we have a violin, French horn, trombone, and percussion. So, random instruments that we can't really make a great band out of. But mostly they were soprano, alto, tenor, bass. I had two boys and two girls.
Now, as far as going to more structured piano lessons, my home does not look perfect at all. Does anybody's? I don't know. But I am absolutely guilty of teaching from the kitchen. You know—"That's the wrong note!"
Whitney: That's a great thing, right?
Debbie: Right. But it's hard for a parent teaching to be as structured as another teacher would be.
Whitney: So did you have a different teacher?
Debbie: We did both.
Whitney: So did we.
Debbie: Sometimes I taught, and a great amount of the time they were with another teacher. Different ages, different dynamics—things happen at different times. I think the basic question is, how long do you fight? How long do you push? I'm also a piano teacher, so other moms would bring their kids to me. And so many of them say their kids are so excited to start piano, and after the first lesson they come back so excited, and the parent is on cloud nine, thinking that this is going to last. And here's me thinking, this is a honeymoon period. I warn them ahead of time: this honeymoon period will stop. Just beware that they are not going to want to practice.
Whitney: So how do you get over that? How long do you last with that?
Debbie: Try to keep the music culture strong in your home, with the parent also being a part of the music making, and doing things outside of the lesson structure and the forced practicing, where you're having fun.
Whitney: Right. Kind of keeping the end result in view, when it's just plunking little notes.
Debbie: Yes. And it's not gratifying. No matter what books you get or what system you use, those early songs just aren't that fun to play. I think that's the hardest thing with piano specifically: getting them over that hump where it suddenly becomes gratifying.
And if we're talking about parents who play the piano, they can practice too—as long as the parent keeps doing their share, just being an example. Then those quiet moments hopefully give the kids the endurance. There's a payoff at the end, and they see you really enjoying it. Now, if the parent doesn't play the piano, which is common, pick up something else, like the ukulele. My friend Sherilyn is taking drum lessons. Awesome, right? So be an example for them, for those moments when they want to trail off and not work hard. Because the payoff in "quarter, quarter, half" is nothing. That's not fun. But it teaches them endurance and strength to just keep going and take it further.
I've learned that the most fun learning you'll do is outside of the piano method books. So I will play something on the piano and then tell them to press a certain note at the right time, and we'll make music together, like doing duets. Or I'll ask what their favorite song is right now. What TV show are you watching? What movie did you love? Get something from that movie and play it. So balance it with something that is fun and gratifying, like an easy piano arrangement, or something you play that they can watch and get excited about the end result.
Whitney: I mean, it's hard, because we've both had students who don't come from musical families. What are some of the tips you have for parents who want to give this gift to their child? Maybe they didn't grow up with it. They want their kids to have music as part of their life, but they don't feel equipped to support that.
Debbie: Well, just take advantage of all the kinds of resources outside of playing an instrument. Go to symphonies, and support live music that's happening. As much as you can, make it a part of your culture and your environment. Listen to playlists, expand your playlists, and listen to things that might be educational—that seems like a boring word, but things that might be developmental and help them.
I'll also have parents ask, "How early do I start my child?" And that is case by case, especially if the parent doesn't play. I will say, as early as you can teach them something. When it comes to formal lessons, kids usually learn faster at about age eight. They can handle the formal structure, and they take off when they're really comfortable reading. Pre-readers or early readers can learn from their moms. So I actually taught lessons to moms so they could teach their child.
So when you start—there are all kinds of method books out there, but there are method books for pre-readers or early readers. With preliminary piano lessons, the mom can sit with them, and it's not as structured. It's maybe ten minutes, maybe every three days. That way the parent is learning with her child, because the books are very explanatory.
I would teach the mom the first ten lessons or so, and she can do that because she's going really fast. I'd give her tips like, be careful with posture, encourage the hand position, start to finish the song, sing the numbers, sing the quarter notes, then sing the words. You give them these little tips and teach ten lessons, so they know exactly what to do. And then it's just more fun. We say, "Let's go play soccer," but we say, "Practice the piano." Why not always say, "Let's go play the piano"? I was starting kids early, and they were ready, but I realized I was really doing what a mom can do. You don't need scholarly know-how to start these lessons with your kid. And then you build a relationship, right?
Whitney: Yeah, it's such an efficient way to do it too, especially if a parent is intimidated. Learning ten lessons at that level in one sitting is easy peasy for an adult brain.
Debbie: Right. And the important thing is to not put pressure on the child, because then they'll develop a bad relationship with the piano at an early age, and you don't want to do that.
Whitney: Because it always gets entangled anyway.
Debbie: So it's just play. I just noticed on Amazon that the Faber Piano Adventures method has a Bluey book, and it's so good. I read the reviews and tried to see what was in this Bluey book, and the scholarly teachers were saying, "This is not meant for structured lessons." And I'm like, perfect. This is for the mom. This is for the parent to sit down and just play. It's simple songs, but a lot of teaching—black keys, white keys, coloring and circling—and it just makes it a part of what we do when we teach our kids numbers and letters, with mom sitting down with the child.
Whitney: Well, and musical toys—actual toys—help too. Like a good xylophone that isn't annoying.
Debbie: There are so many of those, too. And in the park, you know, the chimes in the park—
Whitney: Yeah, it is. And rhythm toys and things like that to play around with. My sister and I shared a room, and we invented a game—I don't know how this came about—where we would turn on classical music at night and each pick a different instrument, and we had to dance as that instrument.
Debbie: That's brilliant.
Whitney: Anyway, it was a listening exercise and a way to play with the music. Or get that baby on your lap and let them pound on the keys and make raucous music.
Debbie: I did that for sure. And a lot of times parents say, "Oh, listening to those first violin or piano lessons is not gratifying. It's like nails on a chalkboard." So prepare for the ugly mistakes happening all the time; it's just not pretty. A really fun tool, if you can make the investment—and it's not much of an investment if you get a cheap one—is a keyboard they can use with headphones, so they can play around with different sounds and just play. Not even practice, just, "Ooh, that's a weird sound, what can I do?" Just experimentation and play.
It's really an important part of it. Make it play first and foremost, so they have that in them. And then, yes, we need those structured method lessons to develop.
I think there's a crisis going on right now with our environment and the instant gratification of phones. As a public high school choir teacher, I find that students are coming into class more and more these days with shorter attention spans. That's always been an issue, but sitting at the piano and learning an instrument is, I think, crucial for going against the tide of phones and those short attention spans. So preparing them early on to be able to learn a structured piano lesson is crucial for that alone, because I think it's just getting worse. Attention spans are getting shorter and shorter. So it is going to be a fight to keep them going.
And then, what is it worth? What's the end goal? Like you said, at least get to where they can play hymns. Decide what the goal is and try to stick with it. I've had so many conversations with parents—and I'm sure you have too, being a teacher—about "Do I let them just quit? This fight is just not worth it." And that's case by case. But with how many regrets you hear later, it's worth exploring differentiation: Okay, how can we adjust something to at least keep this going? Maybe take a year off and then come back.
My oldest daughter stopped—or I didn't push so hard anymore—but the piano was always around. And suddenly, later on, she could play Debussy's "Clair de Lune." When I heard her playing that, she was eighteen. So sometimes a little break helps. I think when we surrender or throw in the towel, we don't have to say, "Never touch the piano again." Maybe go to a different instrument for a while, or get an easy piano arrangement of their favorite song and let them mess around. Say, "Okay, let's not be so structured for a while," but keep the door open to step right back in.
Whitney: I even noticed just yesterday that my most adamant piano quitter was tinkering. He had friends over, and he was playing all the things he could remember. It's been a while, but he can still remember a lot. And a couple of months ago, he wanted to learn a song from Minecraft. So I found the music for it, and we actually had a lesson after probably a two- or three-year break.
Debbie: And there it is.
Whitney: So my kids have all actually gravitated to the guitar. They started with the piano—
Debbie: And they learned the guitar faster, I'm sure.
Whitney: Totally. Right? So now, like you, we have a whole family of guitars. Guitars are great for playing with each other. And that means they can pick up the bass too, and banjo, and we have a drum set that they all tinker with. So we do play as a family band quite a bit—jam sessions and stuff like that. So that is fun. That's part of it.
The other thing, probably related to play, is that we started keeping the guitars upstairs on stands in the living room instead of down where we have the band set up, just because when they see them, they'll pick them up. When one of mine was doing violin, it was the same. If we had it out on a stand in the main living area, he'd pick it up.
Debbie: Yeah. A hundred percent. Making it available in the middle of traffic. And part of it is just working on your own chaos threshold, like you said, and being like, "Okay, I'm going to pretend this isn't bothering me," and getting some earplugs or putting in your AirPods.
When I taught piano, we also had a crisis: my kids' ideal time to practice was when I was teaching. So when we got a baby grand, I didn't get rid of our upright. We had two pianos, and I put the other one in a closed-door space, so there was no excuse. Sometimes two keyboards are nice if you have multiple kids taking piano. We all love the acoustic piano best, but something from Facebook Marketplace—another keyboard that another child can practice on in a closed-door room—is another option. Again, it's about making things accessible for your dynamic, with who's taking piano and who needs to play.
Whitney: Play, not practice, right?
Debbie: Play. Right. So that's another idea too.
Whitney: Another thing this reminded me of: I've done most of the teaching. We've had two other teachers, because once they got to a certain point, I wanted them to get a different perspective. And also it was often just attitude, you know, like, "I don't want you to teach me." Sometimes there's just a personality conflict, with some kids more than others in my family.
So the first thing I did, before I tried another teacher, was hire a ten-year-old girl to come play with my other kids while I taught the lessons. The son I was having trouble with, and teaching, was also ten. So there was a little peer pressure involved. He wasn't going to throw tantrums while he had a peer there.
Debbie: A peer there.
Whitney: So he actually focused. He almost wanted to show off how he could play the piano.
Debbie: What a great idea.
Whitney: That was one of my biggest successes with lessons. And that could work whether you're teaching, or you have a teacher but you're a mom and your kid needs you to sit with them to focus. Maybe once a week, or for an hour or half an hour after school every day. I paid her something small, and she loved it.
Debbie: Win-win-win.
Whitney: The kids loved it.
Debbie: That is a great idea.
Whitney: So that was one of my biggest wins with piano. And then eventually we were like, "Okay, let's try a teacher." And that worked for a while too, because they wanted to impress the teacher. Then they fizzled one by one, but of course I didn't let them completely fizzle. They transitioned to the guitar, so that was great too.
Do you have any other tips to keep them engaged?
Debbie: Keep them engaged. Again, duets—and again, that requires somebody else being a pianist. Engaging in different types of music, different genres. Sometimes it's nice if you have access to another building. For example, we would sometimes go to a church, and one kid would play basketball in the gym while the other one was playing a different piano.
Whitney: That's a great idea.
Debbie: And then showing them the organ—that's if you have access, and sometimes it's not hard to get access to do things like that. That kind of exposure, changing the environment where you practice, can help too.
And then just recognizing that some children are sort of prodigies on a certain instrument and are going to take off, and some might, developmentally, only go so far. But you can try to get them just far enough to where there's some sort of liberation, some sort of independence, where they can pick up a piece of music and figure it out. Because when they get there, it is very, very gratifying. They just love this musical—they get into Wicked and want to go buy the Wicked book, and they start playing "I'm Not That Girl" and think it's so cool.
What blows my mind is that we have different languages, even different ways of writing and reading. We can read from right to left on the other side of the world, or left to right, or up and down, right? But music notation is the same globally, which is mind-blowing.
Whitney: It is. That is mind-blowing.
Debbie: I know there are some tribal and ancient ways to write music. But generally, the notation of the grand staff is going to be global no matter where you are on this earth, whereas languages, and even the way we write and read, even the alphabet, are different.
Again, piano is such a great base. I wish more people played the piano, especially when I teach choir. Maybe one student out of a hundred these days—it depends on the demographic. I've taught in four different states, and some demographics have a higher percentage of kids taking piano than others. But usually I'll have one student out of a hundred who can read music and play the piano. Really, really low. But I know that one keyboardist who comes in is going to know how to sing, how to count, and understand intervals. They're going to understand so many things. It helps with math, because when you understand theory and intervals and things like that—I just think it's a benefit. Now I'm getting on my soapbox, but I wish more people took piano and stayed in it a little bit longer, to be somewhat independent, so we can have that universal language together and an understanding of music and notation and all that.
Whitney: Okay, so let's get into the nitty-gritty. What are some examples of productive practice sessions? What should this look like when we're helping our kids sit down and practice? Let's just stick with the piano.
Debbie: Yeah, stick with the piano. Like I said, it didn't look perfect in our family at all. But have an environment in mind ahead of time, so when it's time to practice, you're not catching the child in a bad or stressful mood, or off guard when they weren't expecting it—and especially not when they're hungry.
Whitney: Always a snack before piano practice.
Debbie: And this is case by case, but as a teacher I would dedicate time to talk to my student about when to practice. "Tell me what is realistic in the rhythm of your life. When is going to be the best, easiest, most realistic time for you to practice? What other things are you doing?" They're taking soccer and basketball, and they're in school clubs. Kids these days—especially the older they get—are busier. So sit down and have a discussion about when that time is going to be carved out, and make it a three-way conversation between parent, teacher, and student, so the expectation and the plan are in their minds as well.
Now, does there have to be some tiger mom thing? I don't know if I even want to go into that. But there has to be a plan. The parent needs to decide how this is best going to be a part of family life and how they're going to make it happen. A lot of times it's communication and planning ahead—again, that's why I got two pianos. It's sitting down and deciding what the path of least resistance is that's going to make this happen and keep it from being negative.
Whitney: Yeah, and not about perfection.
Debbie: You can weigh what is worth the battle and what is worth keeping the happiness. And I believe, as with anything, where there's a will, there's a way. Sometimes it takes time to figure that out and think outside the box—times of day, where the piano is placed. Maybe there needs to be one in their room. I think it's good for the parent to be a part of it, to have it close by in the main traffic areas, or in the office. Our second piano was in the office on the main floor, close to our other piano. So that's basically it: sitting down and coming up with ideas. Parents always have the inspiration from their love and their investment in their child, from what's important to them, and what's going to be important in the long run. That long-run goal is worth what you can decide ahead of time to liberate them in the future to have such a wonderful skill.
Whitney: I'm thinking of some of the tactics I've tried, because for a while I was like, we're going to make this like Pavlov—every time they practice, we give a little treat or something like that.
Debbie: A reward system. Great.
Whitney: Say what you will about bribes, but sometimes they absolutely work. Sometimes we would play a game—I've played this with cleaning too—where, say, they have three songs that they have to play three times each. Every time they finished playing, I would have them add another ingredient to the cookies that we would make afterward.
Debbie: Oh my gosh, that's brilliant.
Whitney: And then we're going toward a goal on both fronts. You could say, "Okay, you finished all the ingredients; now we'll pop them in the oven."
That was a fun one we did. What else have we done? Sometimes I try to make light of the frustration, because you know it's going to be frustrating. If you have something that's stretching you, it's going to be hard to play. It takes hard things—sometimes several weeks—to figure it out and make it sound like anything resembling music. So I would often go to videos of Don Music from Sesame Street.
Debbie: Oh my gosh, I don't know that one. I love old-school Sesame Street.
Whtiney: He was a pianist and a songwriter, and he would be writing songs—classic songs like "Yankee Doodle." So it'd be, "Yankee Doodle went to town, riding on a—oh, I'll never get it, I'll never get it!" And he bangs his head on the keys.
Debbie: Yes, he's just banging his head on the keys.
Whitney: So sometimes when they were frustrated, I would say, "Let's watch one of those," and they're hilarious. He changes up the words, and they're funny. But I feel like it shows that this is just part of it. It's frustrating. Then we have a little release because there's a laugh, and then we go back to it. And sometimes I'd say, "Do it—do Don Music," and I'd let them go, "I'll never get it!" especially when they were younger. Get that frustration out.
That's one of our weirder ones.
Debbie: That is absolutely brilliant. And one thing I thought of also is recital goals. When you have to play in front of someone, that also brings a sense of motivation sometimes.
Whitney: Yes. Having a goal.
Debbie: Having a goal where you play it for someone, or a recital, things like that—that's also a motivator. Some kids are petrified by it, but I found most of the time that after a recital, my students' or my kids' skill or motivation would get a refresh point after those performance goals.
Whitney: Totally. I have a friend who did this so well. They have a full-on bluegrass band in their family.
She's an excellent fiddler. They're amazing. It was just their Sunday tradition to show each other what they learned that week on their instruments. So it was like a family talent show.
Probably not every Sunday, but it was part of their routine. Everybody comes together, like, "What did you make?" Even if it's a section of a song: "This is what I worked on this week, and I got this one." So there's some accountability built in, but also some fun and reward. And that's the other thing: everybody had to say one thing they liked about the performance when it was done.
Debbie: Oh, love that. That's so valuable. That is so good. I love that with our extended family—my parents, every Christmas—this was a mandatory fun thing: my mom would always want us to perform for each other before we opened our gifts as an extended family. This was when we were adults. Not everybody would perform, but for some of them it was the one thin thread that kept them going. And then suddenly, a couple of years later, my nephew played a concerto with my dad and had worked really hard on it.
And this was after he'd left and then come back and had a renewal. So that's along the same lines, but this was annual. Sometimes if someone put away the violin and hadn't had a chance to pick it up, this was their one chance to do it. And then after that, my parents would arrange for Santa to come for the grandkids, and then we would open presents.
Whitney: And especially if you're celebrating every level.
Debbie: Every level. The cute seven-year-old who just started piano, and then the concertos, and then the simple thing of singing "Rudolph" together. No pressure on skill level or talent level. That's what music is for, right? Anyway, I love that weekly thing as a family. That's amazing.
Whitney: I think if the opportunities aren't there for a recital, you can make them, whether it's with extended family like that. We're the same: every time we get together, we have a family talent show. And there was always a room—the music room—where some different group of teenagers from all the extended families was jamming together, and you'd walk by and take a little video once in a while.
Debbie: Which is so fun. And it's true: a family that plays music together stays together. And it's not perfect. Of course, there's fighting even in the middle of making music sometimes.
Whtiney: Absolutely. I would almost say usually.
Debbie: Exactly. At some point or another, there's frustration. But all the more connections we can make as a family, and the relationship building—it's just such a great thing.
Whitney: And there's a physiological thing about singing with other people.
Debbie: Oh, don't get me started. For sure.
Whitney: So for my parents—we're big Beatles fans—When my dad turned sixty-four, and my mom wasn't far behind, we kind of made it for both of them. We invited friends and family on Facebook from all over, rented the gazebo at the park, and put on a Beatles concert. Every family had two songs, and it was so fun.
Debbie: That is next level. That is pretty amazing. Way to seize the opportunities.
And of course people listening to this are like, "Well, I don't have that." I know. But you're seizing the opportunities with what is available in your family. There are small things that I think every household can do for a music talent night.
Whitney: Absolutely. Even if it's kazoos.
Debbie: Absolutely. Or harmonicas or whatever. Jim and I performed "Rudolph" with a kazoo, having fun with it, and that was probably more enjoyable to them than an "Ave Maria." So there's so much that people can do.
And holidays are a great time, if that's not part of your culture yet. Most people, whether or not they consider themselves musical, still turn on Christmas music. They still know Christmas music.
Even down to picking a playlist. At this family reunion—it was a big deal—it didn't start off with a talent show, right? But I was intentional about picking a playlist. I was like, what are songs that are just going to be hype? I picked songs that everybody was going to love, and that playlist made it next level. We danced, and we all spontaneously learned "Seasons of Love"—"Five hundred twenty-five thousand six hundred minutes." We filmed ourselves singing it and dancing to it. Those spontaneous jam sessions can be way more uplifting than your formal recital. And we need both, right?
Whitney: Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of playlists, I used to be very deliberate about that too. For my young kids, first of all, I had them watch Little Einsteins.
Debbie: Of course. I was a fan of that.
Whitney: It introduced them—and you can still find it.
Debbie: And why do we love that? Classical music.
Whitney: Yeah, and they're singing words to it. And it's not overly stimulating. The whole episode is about one song. So my kids knew those songs. They'd be playing with their toys, humming Mozart. Stravinsky. It was a good thing.
But then I made a CD of all the songs from all the episodes, and we'd play that in the car. They were all classical songs they already knew and loved, and they'd sing along with the classical music. So I used to do that. But then I also made CDs of the songs they should know to be culturally literate, musically literate.
Debbie: I love that.
Whitney: So I made a country one, a classic rock one, Folk, and musicals. So we had a bunch of those that I'd play depending on the mood, but I was very intentional about it. These guys need to know what Dolly Parton sounds like.
Debbie: Yes, they need to know. A hundred percent. The car is a great time, actually. We're the same there. I had Car CD Number One and Car CD Number Two—that's what I called them. I didn't divide them into genres, and I could have. That's a good idea. But I was very intentional with what music they were hearing in the car. It's such an opportunity—a captive audience for something audio.
Whitney: And now my husband has taken control of that. He's a surgeon, and you may not know this, but the playlist for a surgeon is very important, because they listen to music while they're operating.
So he makes a new playlist every season, because you get tired of a playlist when you're listening to it every day. You make it big, and you change it up for the season. We use Apple Music, so the kids can all listen to his playlists, and the kids have all started making their own seasonal playlists. Then they share them: "Have you heard of this?" There's always this ongoing joke—"Yeah, I've heard of it. I showed you that band." Like, "That came from me." Anyway, there's always a conversation about how this new album dropped, so it's very cool.
Debbie: So that's another way to make connections. Oh my gosh, that's so good. Wow.
I did another weird, outside-the-box thing.
Whitney: Okay. I love weird.
Debbie: I know, right? When my kids were little, I was teaching them to harmonize, and I did the weird thing: I called the music chair of our congregation and asked, "What are the hymns this Sunday?" Because I liked to prep my kids with the hymns so I could teach them the harmony, and in the moment they'd know how to sing it. And she was like, "Oh, okay, well, they're these." So that's just another idea for singing—we're all born with an instrument. Teaching them the alto line, so when we sang that hymn, they would know the alto line and feel kind of cool doing that—or the tenor line.
I also think it's good to have them involved in a children's choir if they can be. Where we lived in Texas, there was no children's choir in our community, so I just started one.
And then that gets them familiar with all kinds of songs, like musical theater, or whatever songs you're singing along with. And teaching them harmony at younger ages latches them on to the interest of music too—being able to sing the Beatles and hear other notes besides the melody, or, when you're listening, to hear what's built into the music. They can hear other things.
Whitney: Well, and another plug for the symphony: our Denver Symphony, for sure, has ten-dollar tickets for kids, any seat. Which is amazing. So take advantage of that. And they have so much kid-friendly programming. Sometimes they'll do a Harry Potter night where they play the movie and the orchestra plays along. We go at least once a year as a family, and other times too. Some people never check into it, because they just assume it'll be expensive or boring. But there's so much great programming specifically for kids.
They even did one where they played the—what's that, the parade of animals? What is it called?
Debbie: Carnival of the Animals.
Whitney: And they brought animals from the zoo on stage while they were playing.
Probably not an elephant, but—
Debbie: Like a flamingo? There's a flamingo movement.
Wow, that is so cool. Way to go, these days. The things musicians do to keep it alive—
Whitney: they're trying so hard. You'd better check in and see what they're doing.
Debbie: Check in. And that reminds me: how early do you start your kids on an instrument, especially if it's not piano? I have a good friend whose daughter was a flute prodigy. And I asked, "How did you know?" She said, "Well, I took them to a symphony." Her youngest, who took to the flute, was only two when she took her to the symphony. She had two girls; the oldest was in piano, and the youngest just kept talking about the flute. And whenever a flute would come on, the mom recognized that she had an interest in that sound, in that instrument, at a very young age. So when she was only five or six—I don't know what age—they started with the flute.
Whitney: A tiny flute?
Debbie: It must have been a smaller flute. Anyway, she's accomplished—Juilliard, next level, global competitions. All because her mom took her to a symphony, and it started with her expressing interest. The mom does not play the flute. So you never know. She recognized that starter, and then the daughter started piano later. But there it is.
Whitney: I'm sure we will have listeners who are like, "Yeah, but you don't understand. I really can't carry a tune. I really can't keep a beat." At what level should they participate in music?
Debbie: Right. It comes from your goals. What do you want for your kids? What do you want to see? Maybe it's something you didn't have that you want to see in them. If they want their kids to take piano, that's where I would say, learn the piano alongside them, so music can be a part of your experience with them as well. And then the exposure we talked about: take them to musical plays, musicals, symphonies, and things like that.
I dare you to take a lesson of some kind that you feel like you can do. If you struggle with keeping a beat—which happens—take drum lessons, so you're working on the one thing that's hard for you. If I had a nickel for every parent who came to my door starting lessons, and all of them said, "I regret quitting, I didn't know, please help me start again." And then they also end up tapering off, when they didn't intend to. So again, pick up something, knowing that your honeymoon period is going to wear off. Keep that long-term goal in mind, and prepare for when that endurance drops. I've taught many, many adults piano lessons.
Whitney: That's my favorite. I love teaching piano to adults.
Debbie: I do too. And there are books for adult beginners. So I think that's what I would say: if you want more music in your home and you didn't come from a musical home, there are more resources out there than ever for adult beginners to take lessons, or at least dabble. You can teach yourself, especially on YouTube. It's ridiculous how many resources there are now. "Teach me piano," YouTube.
Keyboard or drums or anything like that.
Whitney: And there are affordable programs my kids have dabbled in. Sometimes it's not something you're going to do long term, but it's something to get over a hump. Especially if they're little and don't get a lot of iPad time, you can say, "You can have unlimited iPad time on this piano app."
Whitney: Lots of piano apps. Can you recommend any?
Debbie: I don't even know anymore, because a new one will come out in six months.
Whitney: Exactly. And a lot of them are really great. And some of them are great for a time, and then they outgrow them and you move on.
Debbie: If you want help choosing something online, take it to your neighborhood piano teacher, who will be happy to help you look and pick something. There are so many resources now. But I think the bottom line is making it an environment somehow. What can you do in your home to make music more of an environment, with playlists, your own exposure, supporting your community and city, and even silly dancing or whatever?
Whitney: I remember when I had two kids at home during the school day who weren't going to school yet. I found myself dropping the older kids off—a hectic morning for these toddlers, who were like, "What's going on? I'm just being dragged along"—and then I'd come home and clean up after the whirlwind we'd made. And then I realized, wait, no, we need to take a minute and do something fun with these toddlers who aren't going to school. So we'd drop the kids off at school, come back home, and have our designated dancing time right after, and then we'd go about our day.
Debbie: I love that. Dance is a big part of getting them engaged, especially with some personalities, or neurodivergence. That can be part of it too. And that can be any kind of music, but it's also a great time to expose them to some classical music for dancing, like Vivaldi's The Four Seasons. It has super strong beats and is interesting, and you can take to it without being really familiar with music.
Whitney: The 1812 Overture.
Debbie: Exactly. And Ravel's Boléro, which is a twelve-minute piece, but it keeps adding more texture, more texture, more texture. That's fun to dance to. You start small, and then when the texture is huge, you're throwing them up in the air and spinning around, and it ends huge. Not to mention things like Sousa marches. There's really lots of exposure you can do there.
I get a lot of questions about this, because I also taught voice lessons: "How young can I start singing lessons?" Usually, when you really get into technique, it's after the voice change, so that's older—twelve to fifteen. However, do you sing before then? Yes, absolutely. Of course. A lot of times, investing in singing lessons when you can do it so easily in other ways isn't the best choice, so I would always say start with the piano first, and you can sing with the piano.
But what I did was voice classes. I would group students of the same age, and sometimes even by gender. I had one that was mixed gender, and it was fun, because each student had their own song, and then we had a group song that we'd perform together. A lot of times it was "I Feel Pretty" from West Side Story. The point was for them to feel comfortable with their voice, comfortable performing, comfortable singing. And then we would do a big musical theater piece together that I would just make work.
I would have parents drop off their child at the beginning and say, "They're terrified of singing in front of people. I apologize; they probably will not do the recital." Countless times. And they always did. I'd always say, "I'll take that." When you make it so fun, they get that level of confidence and are able to sing. It was just too fun. And they learned each other's songs too, so they left knowing ten songs, because there were about ten students: something from musical theater, or pop, or the Muppets, or their favorite show. And as a result, all my kids know every song from every musical, because they would overhear these classes so often.
Whitney: I had to get creative there too. In the summers—we probably did it for three summers—I would say, "Hey, I'm giving a free music class." But it was just because I wanted my kids to have it. We did the same thing, and we performed for senior citizens at the end. We did a little show. I just invited a couple of families—people I knew would love to have their kids singing more—and we had a whole program, including some kazoos and some fun things.
Debbie: That's amazing. Singing in assisted living centers is also way underrated. As a family, you go in, and the performance doesn't need to be perfect. It doesn't even need to be good by the standards of sophisticated music. They don't even want that. They just want connection, and something they know that makes them remember something happy. And what a great service.
And being comfortable with your own voice. Again, if I had a nickel for everyone who said, "When I was in third grade, someone said I had an ugly voice, and ever since then I just don't dare sing." But they really want to sing, so they're taking voice lessons just because they want to get over being terrified. If we can just get our kids to sing when they're young, they'll be confident and feel comfortable with their voice.
I had my quartet—soprano, alto, tenor, bass. One of my boys did not want to sing with us. We would post on social media; we called them hymn selfies. That was our way of sharing the light. We would sing hymns on social media. That was my way of contributing to social media. And my youngest son just didn't want to do it, so I said okay. But it became a buzz, and people started noticing. His school teachers noticed, and his teacher approached my youngest son and said, "So why aren't you doing that?" And he just started doing it after that. So sometimes somebody else might pressure them, and I was like, "Okay, thank you." Because he could sing; he just didn't want to. So it doesn't look perfect. Anyway, that's my funny story. But he did it after that, and we did it for a few more years too.
Whitney: Well, this has been so fun. It's been nice to get a little insider info from an amazing musician like yourself. So thank you for coming.
Debbie: Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Family Lab podcast. And I want to thank my podcast manager, Kimberly Hansen, for making this podcast possible and my mom, Susan Singley, for playing the theme music. She used to play this song all the time when we were growing up, and to me it's the soundtrack of motherhood.
